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Nick Karagiaouroglou
{K:127263} 12/9/2008
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I couldn't say it any better and I couldn't agree more, Andre!
For whatever reason most people (and not only on UF) seem to have some kind of preoccupation with the idea that they are themselves "great" and thus they have to receive also flowery comments for whatever they do. And so, when it comes to objections they ger "hurt" or "insulted" and defensive. It is much like they are connecting some negative comments about an image (or anything else) directly with their own value as persons, which is of course absurd. I don't know how and why this happens. Perhaps we identified too strongly our "products" with our own selves?
Critisism is always constructive - the expression "consturctive criticism" is a tautology. For there should be no personal pun intented when for example saying that some image is bad. One can "construct" the essentials of some possible better approach in order to make the image better. Such expressions seem to be the result of the unwillingmess to accept criticism at all. So, with "consturctive criticism" most people here connect exactly this: The flowery comments that you refered to. This is then "consturctive criticism" though it doesn't help at all to do anything better. It only says, "oh nice". ;-)
There is nothing "insulting" in saying that something somebody did was completely bad. For me it is much more frustrating when I post images for testing the reactions and I realize I could just had post anything at all, and it would still be "great". I perceive it as a swindle. ;-)
But I also think that this is why many too many that need those flowery comments start doing "photography". They misuse the absence of absolute criteria for defending their "right" to present anything as "good work". It is camouflaged incapability or unwillingness to work. It is "tell me I'm the best", if you like.
And this is why I enjoy your comments and messages. It always stays doen to earth, no diva attitudes, just some people talking about images.
Cheers!
Nick
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Andre Denis
{K:66407} 12/3/2008
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Hi Nick,
It's good to see you back at the site. You almost always seem to come up with a comment that gets me coming up with some analogy. In this case, I think my attitude towards realizing there is always room for improvement in most images probably comes from something I learned back in the early to mid 70's. Back then when the North American Auto industy was still very smug about competition from the Japanese auto industry, the company I worked for held training sessions on the Japanese methods of manufacturing and quality control. I remember being amazed that companies like Toyota and Honda actually THANKED their customers for pointing out the flaws in the cars so that they could work on their philosophy of Continuous Improvement. Most of us at that time had a very hard time accepting criticism of any kind. We were taught that the Japanese considered every problem an opportunity for improvement, turning a negative word into a positive phrase. It took a few of us a long time to get our heads around those concepts. :) It all seems so simple now.
Anyway, I think if more people on this site would accept constructive criticism instead of looking for flowery comments, the site would be a much better place.
Andre
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Nick Karagiaouroglou
{K:127263} 12/3/2008
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Hi Andre!
And please excuse the long delay of my reply. It's been a real hard time here.
Well... surely! It is just staying inside the realms of reality, just standing on real feet on the real ground when we are never absolutely "happy" with any image we shot. (Or with anything else that we happened to "produce".) This is not some kind of "snobism" to me, quite the contrary it is to be simply reasonable and down to earth. So I think of it. You see your well done things, you see your mistakes, you conclude, you try to go futher. I think that even one single inch that one manages to go further this way is really worth it.
Perhaos after all it is the best thing to do, to know that we will never reach "perfection". But we have some guidance toward it, and we keep on going in small steps. Each of these steps has something important to say, I guess.
Cheers!
Nick
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Andre Denis
{K:66407} 10/16/2008
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Hi Nick,
I think you have a similar mind set to me. We can take images for 30 or more years and still never be "completely" happy with them. :)
Andre
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Nick Karagiaouroglou
{K:127263} 10/7/2008
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And I thank you for all the kindness, Indranil. I know, I am pretty much direct many times. ;-)
Cheers!
Nick
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Indranil Ray
{K:2035} 10/6/2008
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Thanks a lot Nick. Nice explanation and I agree with you :). I appriciate your ideas and thoughts.
Best Regards!
Indranil
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Nick Karagiaouroglou
{K:127263} 10/6/2008
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Oh no, no, that was not because of being hurt, Indranil! It was only a quite cooled down description of what I see many many times. I know that you don't have any bad intention - that is completely clear to me. It only seems that many too many times we all put everything under some kind of "generally accepted rule" without digging a bit more. It's like... hmmm, let's say expecting from Greek language to have some concept for "motoway" because English has that. When the english speaking person refers to that, he/she refers to something for which the greek speaking person has no concept at all, but this is of course not because of any bad intention. It is interesting to see that phenomenon and talk about that in a direct and sincere way.
Cheers!
Nick
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Nick Karagiaouroglou
{K:127263} 10/6/2008
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Yes, Andre, it really has to be also the own ability to "grasp" the view, be it wildlife or coty. And most of the time one can do the one thing better than the other for whatever reason. I think that this way many different kinds of photographers come up. But still I would wish a good image of some butterfly or any other animal. Just for being completely happy with it.
Cheers!
Nick
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Indranil Ray
{K:2035} 10/3/2008
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Hey Nick, I was not try to apply my concept on you. I dont have that intention. I was just sharing my ideas and feelings with you Nick. But still, I am sorry if I hurt your feelings.
I highly appriciate your ideas and feelings also agree with some thoughts.
Cheers!
Indranil
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Nick Karagiaouroglou
{K:127263} 10/3/2008
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Well, the statement "there is no definition of beauty" is not the same as "there is no *strict* definition of beauty", the latter standing in no contradiction to the rest of your statement. So you are "analytically closed and free of contradictions", I guess! ;-)
But still, a consistent statement can only be made by accepting some basic axioms. And the choise of axioms is not compulsory. The statement is true iff we accept the axioms. Now, assuming that "everybody" has that kind of "feeling" is not justified. Assuming that right from the start is forcing the own expectation to others and thus assuming the right to "analyze" all others by using the own criteria, ey? But perhaps not everybody fits such criteria.
I told you that I don't have any kind of contacts to "beauty" or ugliness. Instead of just taking it the way it is you still try to apply that concept to me, for example saying that I like my whisky in sleazy bars because "I feel something" there. Do you know me so well in order to be able to say that, Indranil? Many people around will surely be as you describe, but many others will not. We shouldn't assume things in all people just because they seem to be so self-explanatory to ourselves, ey?
For me, if somebody deals with "beauty" (or whatever we may name it) then it's good and nice that they do. If it is good for them, then it's great. But why should that be some kind of "standard"? If somebody else doesn't deal with that, then it is exactly as great. I don't find anything at all "beautiful" exactly as I don't find anything at all "ugly". If I like something then this doesn't imply at all that I find such qualities in it. It may be hard to grasp to many people, but not more than it is impossible to me to find something "beautiful" or "ugly".
Cheers!
Nick
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Andre Denis
{K:66407} 10/2/2008
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Hi Nick,
The problem we have when comparing ourselves to some of the "Wildlife specialists" here on this site is that so many of them are pretty near pro quality. I wonder how they would do on the "street"? Marcus Armani is one of the best here, but I remember having a conversation with him about a cityscape that he did that he was very dissapointed with. He told me at the time that he prefers sticking to birds in flight.
Andre
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Nick Karagiaouroglou
{K:127263} 10/1/2008
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Thanks a lot for the idea and the attachment, Aziz! The butterfly is still more or less on the center of the image but I can see that staning nearer to the butterfly could help. The sense for perspective/geometry got lost this way, though, since the lines of the stone wall are not as well present now.
Cheers!
Nick
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Indranil Ray
{K:2035} 10/1/2008
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Explained nicely Nick. I wanted to say in my point of view there is no strict definitation of beauty. Even a peeble is really beautiful if you portray it in that way. Say for human, many people fall in love seeing the apperance but there are many people whose apperance not so appealing but had great mind and heart. I was talking about that beauty. You like whisky with friends in some sleazy bar because you feel something there. I think beauty is there in your feelings. Love, feelings, emotion, affection and there are lots of things are beautiful.Say, a child on mother's arm looks so beautiful. Thats why I feel There are not such definitations about beauty.
Cheers!
Indranil
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Nick Karagiaouroglou
{K:127263} 10/1/2008
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Whoa, Indranil, wait, wait, wait! I didn't say that there is no definition of beauty and that we just open our eyes and find that out. I said that for me it is not good and not bad. It is irrelevant. I simply don't care about that, and if there is a definition or anything else it is all the same to me. I don't cope with that, that's all.
But still, let's accept your statement for a moment. You say that there is no definition of beauty, which turns the very object of study to non-existent in the strictest logical way. But right after that you say that "beauty lives everywhere, etc", which contradicts the first part of the statement. So, now what? You can't have both parts of the statement. If it *is* there for you, so it *is* there. If it isn't, then it just *isn't*. But not both.
And this is also something I observe on many too many "beauty-fans". They start singing their romantic songs about beauty without any reference to simple understanding. That's OK with me, but then... they extrapolate their "feelings" to all other people. As already said, don't mess me with that. I am not of that kind. I can say of course what I like, but such "etherial" concepts like "beauty" are not for me. I like whisky with friends in some sleazy bar full of smoke. Is that beautiful? I don't know and I don't care.
Cheers!
Nick
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Nick Karagiaouroglou
{K:127263} 10/1/2008
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This is also what made me wanting to try the shot, Andre. I tend to think now that there is too much of the stone on the image, but the intention was that variety of contrast and the lines of the stone.
I don't exactly know if they are called Red Admirals around here but I think they do. I have heard some people talking about that.
What I always find so hard with butterflies and all animals in general is what we have talked so often in the past too. The vast majority of my images with animals came out also very bad.
Cheers!
Nick
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aZiZ aBc
{K:28345} 9/30/2008
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Sorry , for wrong attachment !!
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Cropped for compo ! |
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aZiZ aBc
{K:28345} 9/30/2008
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Very beautiful, very good contrast, ..
not so agree with composition !, because of the butterfly at the centre.
See the attachment pls.
H n H
Aziz
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cropped for compo |
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Nick Karagiaouroglou
{K:127263} 9/30/2008
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Thanks again, Vandi!
And also perhaps a bit too much of the stone.
Cheers!
Nick
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Nick Karagiaouroglou
{K:127263} 9/30/2008
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Thanks a lot for the nice comment, Gustavo!
This is also exactly what I think about now. Perhaps a bit less of the stone and a bit more of the butterfly...
Cheers!
Nick
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Nick Karagiaouroglou
{K:127263} 9/30/2008
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Thanks a lot Dave!
Indeed that "sum of contrasts" was my reason for trying the shot. I guess however that there is too much rock and too little butterfly on the image - perhaps some closer look on the buttefly could add something more.
Cheers!
Nick
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Indranil Ray
{K:2035} 9/30/2008
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Yes you are right Nick. There is not definitation of Beauty. Beauty lives everywhere, just we have to open our inner eye and feelings.
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Nick Karagiaouroglou
{K:127263} 9/30/2008
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Many thanks for the nice comment, Indranil. The contrast was exactly what made me think that it could give a good image.
I am not as much into "beauty" since I don't know what it is. It is the good image that I am hunting for, but not the "beauty", really.
Cheers!
Nick
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Nick Karagiaouroglou
{K:127263} 9/30/2008
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Thanks a lot Hakan!
Actually the position if the buttefly is almost exactly in the center of it, but the additional lines seem to "de-center" it somehow.
Cheers!
Nick
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Andre Denis
{K:66407} 9/30/2008
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There is an interesting contrast here Nick. Organic, inorganic, animal, mineral soft, hard. Everything in the image is a contrast.
I took a shot of the same kind of butterfly last week. They are called Red Admirals here in North America. My image didn't come out very well.
Andre
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Vandy Neculae
{K:7990} 9/29/2008
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Nice and interesting composition, Nick.
Vandi
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Gustavo Scheverin
{K:164501} 9/29/2008
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Me gusta, muy bueno el encuadre utilizando elementos del entorno para dar interés a la mariposa sin acercarte mucho.
Bravo!
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Dave Stacey
{K:150877} 9/29/2008
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I like the contrast between butterfly and stone, Nick, in the colours and texture.
Dave.
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Indranil Ray
{K:2035} 9/29/2008
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Yes, nice contrast between butterfly and stone and nice idea indeed. Nice catch dear Nick, beauty lives everywhere!
Cheers!
Indranil
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Hakan AKIRMAK
{K:15913} 9/29/2008
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Very nice work dear Nick!
I love the position of butterfly in the frame.
Congratulations!
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