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Mark Julian
{K:36866} 7/12/2006
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Sometimes you have to go straight to THE MAN (Bob Dylan) for a clear explanation. Here's an edited version of "With God on Our Side":
The History books tell it/they tell it so well/The Cavalries charged/the Indians fell/The Cavalries charged/the Indians died/Oh the country was young/with God on it's side.
The first World War boys/It closed out it's fate/The reason for fighting/I never got straight/But I learned to accept it/Accept it with pride/For you don't count the dead/When God's on your side.
When the Second World War/Came to an end/We forgave all the Nazis/and we were their friends/Though they murdered countless millions/in the oven they fried/the Nazis now too/Have God on their side.
But now we got weapons/of a chemical dust/If fire them we're forced to/then fire them we must/One push of the button/shot hearld world wide/but you never ask questions/When God's on your side.
In a many a dark hours/I've been thinking about this/That Jesus Christ/was betrayed by a kiss/But I can't really tell you/you'll have to decide/Whether Judas Iscariot/Had God on his side....
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Paul Lara
{K:88111} 7/10/2006
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"to believe that God looks favorably down upon only America."
...Dave, let us NEVER forget that the Nazi SS had emblazoned on their belt buckles:
Gott Mit Uns (God's on our side)
So regardless of the nationality, sneaky leaders have been using the 'pious card' throughout recorded history. My own gut tells me the more national leaders shout about their piety, the less I believe them.
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Dave Arnold
{K:55680} 7/10/2006
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Excellent lesson in hypocrisy, Paul. You are now my most bestest, favoritist buddy. I'll take a TRUE patriot over the rest anytime.
Meanwhile, lets all focus on the stupid stuff like flag burning, gay rights, walls on our borders and the meaning of Christmas so that we don't have to focus on the crooks and liars of our administration.
And Martin, your "May God Let Freedom Ring" is so shallow. That is so typical of your kind, to believe that God looks favorably down upon only America. Get a life.
Dave Arnold
Patriot.
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Akite Mienten
{K:150} 7/8/2006
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> "Martin stated his opinion: burning the American flag is an act of treason. He did not precede it with "punishable"."
So there are, or should be, acts of treason that are -not- punishable by law? If simply burning the flag were treason, then -any- burning of it would be treason, including down at the VFW. No, what you all object to is the dissent given expression through its burning.
You think Paul was being a bit condescending in his remark to Martin? Is that anything like the condescention in statements like: "(liberals-guns,swords and the like played a part in virtually every country's history)."?
You say "I'm also really tired of people craming my mouth full of things I've never said"
Hmmm. Like saying in your response to me on Paul's other image: "Interesting deffinition of "true" patriot: one who burns the flag of his or her country." when I never said that at all?
Study words for you to look up: Hypocrisy, tolerance (now -there's- something conservatives know a lot about!)
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Akite Mienten
{K:150} 7/8/2006
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Very thought-provoking image, Paul, and it couldn't have illustrated better the fact that what the reactionaries truly object to is dissent, not the burning of the flag per se! To that effect, the framing of this shot, showing only the flag and the flame and removing all other context is brilliant. Well done!
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Randy Lorance
{K:24769} 7/8/2006
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> With all due respect, Planning for the attack on the World Trade Center began in late 1998 or early 1999. By the summer of 2000, three of the pilots were already in U.S. taking pilot lessons.
At this time, Bin Ladin was in Afghanistan and Bill Clinton was in the White House.
My "points" terminology was not in the context of
"some sport", but the context of scoring points as in a debate. (Webster- "a lively turn of thought or expression...")
As to quotes, I wasn't doubting that the quotes you used were "REAL". My "point" was that you could use a quote from just about anybody to try to make your position look good, not that you were trying to make the former Pres or general look good.
This is my last words to this thread, time to get back to photography.
Randy
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Gayle's Eclectic Photos
{K:91109} 7/8/2006
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Randy said > "Gayle, Bush had not been president when the 9/11 plans were made and actions begun..."
Randy,...LOL...ok,guess i thought Jan.20,2001 when Bushwhack was sworn in came BEFORE Sept.11,2001...by about 8 months+ !
Randy said > "As for all the quotes being thrown up, that is about the cheapest way to try to score points. I could find qoutes from Hitler and make him look like a nice guy."
Randy,this isn't some sport where someone tries to "score points"....this is REAL LIFE and history in the making!...the quotes i wrote were REAL,documented beliefs from 2 different reasonable Americans who knew what being patriotic truly means...it had nothing to do with trying to make a Marine general and a former president look good,as you say.....what would be the point of that???....ta ta ;>
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Randy Lorance
{K:24769} 7/8/2006
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> As for all the quotes being thrown up, that is about the cheapest way to try to score points. I could find qoutes from Hitler and make him look like a nice guy. That leads me back to something I postured to you Paul,earlier in a comment-
"It makes me wonder how you might react if I were in a play version of "Shindler's List", and in my costume consisting of a Nazi armband on my shirt, passed you on the sidewalk, what your reaction might be?" Execpt now I would add something; As I said, my first reaction to this image was troubling, later relieved by your 'about', but soon to be bothered by(because of your later responses)the impression that this was a set-up to snag those who disagree with your opinions. So let me add to that 'Nazi' parable I proposed earlier. Let's say as you pass me and assume I am a member of that group, you mutter something like "disgusting" at me. Whereupon I hand you a flier promoting that evening's showing of the play. You see that I am but an actor and graciously apologize for assuming that I was a Nazi. I then turn to you and say "that's OK, I really am a Nazi.
Randy
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Randy Lorance
{K:24769} 7/8/2006
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Look everyone, in the first place (considering that part of the purpose of this posting was about people jumping to conclusions or making presumptions), Martin stated his opinion: burning the American flag is an act of treason. He did not precede it with "punishable". A person could say "that is obscene" without it having to mean it was punishable by law. Though the purpose behind UF is not to air political or religous opinions, is is bound to crop up. However I see no reason for things to get ugly if members show manners and respect. Paul, I don't know what your history with Martin is, but unless he's lit into you in a rude fashion(well I did just scan down and see he called you an "ass"), what is with your personal putdown "...in any way synonomous (...oh, sorry. Big word" or "Let me rephrase for the English-challenged"?
I'm also really tired of people craming my mouth full of things I've never said or implied simply because I've voiced my disagreement with some aspect of some remark or political charged image. To whom it may concern- I have not said burning the flag is treasonous, I don't advocate a 'law' against it, and just because I may disagree with you on some aspect of the country's(or president's) actions, does not mean I'm a blind, in lockstep, wanting to "re-distribute this nations wealth to the top .01% where THEY feel it 'belongs'.( what the h*** is that?)
I know you'll hate this, But why is it sooooo common for liberals to start casting detracters as 100% tow-the-line lemmings any one or any party?
> Gayle, Bush had not been president when the 9/11 plans were made and actions begun,there is NO excuse for purposely slaughtering civilians(anytime,anywhere,by anyone). And hardly a time for sensitivity training. You continue to bring up freedom of speech(as if you can't say whatever the hell you want to)being usurped, about the only thing you have to watch is being carefull with cartoon content.
> Mark, if I didn't think you were serious, I'd think you were serious. What you're demanding would take volumns and you wouldn't agree with one word anyway. Perhaps some are upset because we didn't give them enough aid. By the way, you still haven't answered a question asked by me or someone else-EXACTLY when did you stop feeling love for the United States which you proclaimed you had at one time, and EXACTLY what broke your heart?
(to be continued, hope that's not against UF rules)
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Martin .
{K:24957} 7/8/2006
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Gayle,
Check out my words for you and Paul:
Nuff said:
Paul,
My "God" let this one rest Paul... Let's just agree to not Seeing Eye to eye, OK?
I take back the treason thing, alright, because, we will never agree on that subject... I don't have the time or energy to explore the English language at this time in my life... I'm not an educated man to say the least... So you "WIN" on the word game.
The "Holy Spirit" Himself taught me what I know about Prophecy... So you might have an argument with “Him” tonight… Good Luck! LMAO ... I have never won regarding this matter...
If you’re hating on the "Bush" administration so be it... We have a lot more to worry about, than fussing with each other at this time and point.
Posting a "Burning Flag" went out in the "60's" and we face a much bigger challenge than that in these times... I was just messing about with you on that subject...
My whole point right now is that I fear for our existence for the duration of this world. Quit quibbling over the small stuff with me Please...
We are in way over our heads, regarding something we can't finish, as the wars in the Middle East have been going on for hundreds of years. If you have something to say about that, please comment.
If you don't know your ass from a hole in the ground regarding the Middle East, or the "Holy Bible", please don't comment on this again, because your way over your head...
In “His” service,
Martin
Time is way too short to mess with me and you know it!
Do you feel me?
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Martin .
{K:24957} 7/8/2006
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Paul,
My "God" let this one rest Paul... Let's just agree to not Seeing Eye to eye, OK?
I take back the treason thing, alright, because, we will never agree on that subject... I don't have the time or energy to explore the English language at this time in my life... I'm not an educated man to say the least... So you "WIN" on the word game.
The "Holy Spirit" Himself taught me what I know about Prophecy... So you might have an argument with “Him” tonight… Good Luck! LMAO ... I have never won regarding this matter...
If you’re hating on the "Bush" administration so be it... We have a lot more to worry about, than fussing with each other at this time and point.
Posting a "Burning Flag" went out in the "60's" and we face a much bigger challenge than that in these times... I was just messing about with you on that subject...
My whole point right now is that I fear for our existence for the duration of this world. Quit quibbling over the small stuff with me Please...
We are in way over our heads, regarding something we can't finish, as the wars in the Middle East have been going on for hundreds of years. If you have something to say about that, please comment.
If you don't know your ass from a hole in the ground regarding the Middle East, or the "Holy Bible", please don't comment on this again, because your way over your head...
In “His” service,
Martin
Time is way too short to mess with me and you know it!
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Gayle's Eclectic Photos
{K:91109} 7/8/2006
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>Martin/Randy: FYI......
"Because one aspect of Treason is 'giving aid and comfort to its enemies', through any act, calculated to bring the government into content or incite others into hostility, THE BUSH DOCTRINE (official document...Google it) is the smoking gun that has clearly "given aid and comfort to all our enemies", especially the terrorists, creating an unprecedented contempt and hostility for America from our friends and enemies alike...(See Bush Doctrine)
Furthermore,this image is not remotely considered to be aiding or comforting the enemies of this country by any stretch of the imagination, nor especially within the legal interpretations of Constitutional law in the USA...seriously,research it...it is a no brainer!
"The dangerous patriot...is a defender of militarism and its ideals of war and glory."
~Colonel James A. Donovan, Marine Corps
"That we are to stand by the president, right or wrong is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."
~Theodore Roosevelt
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Paul Lara
{K:88111} 7/8/2006
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Randy, Please think this through:
Treason is such a serious offense that it is punishable by death. So, the legal phrase in the charge of Treason... "giving comfort and aid to the enemy" clearly refers to financing/sheltering/hiding/feeding those that seek to destroy the United States of America. That is NOT in any way synonomous with something that YOU think the 'enemy' might agree with.
So, while stating "Bush is a frequent Liar" might draw agreement from our 'enemies', it is not treasonous, as it does not aid them in their material cause.
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Paul Lara
{K:88111} 7/8/2006
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Martin,
Pleae give this some thought:
Treason is such a serious offense that it is punishable by death. So, the legal phrase in the charge of Treason... "giving comfort and aid to the enemy" refers to financing/sheltering/hiding/feeding those that seek to destroy the United States of America. That is NOT in any way synonomous (...oh, sorry. Big word. My dad taught me never use a big word when a diminutive one will do..."means the same as"...)
Let me rephrase for the English-challenged: That is not the same as something that YOU think the 'enemy' might agree with.
So, while stating "Bush is a frequent Liar" might draw agreement from our 'enemies', it is not treasonous, as it does not aid them in their material cause.
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Mark Julian
{K:36866} 7/8/2006
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And Marty, EXACTLY who are the enemies of America (please list the nations) and please state EXACTLY how and why they became America's enemies...... Waiting for your answer.......Thanks, Mark
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Martin .
{K:24957} 7/7/2006
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Randy,
Thank you my friend, as this capture without knowing that it was being retired would aid and comfort the enemies of this country. This is not the time to do so... IMHO ...
Marty
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Randy Lorance
{K:24769} 7/7/2006
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> Paul,Martin,Gayle,
to understand the fuller meaning of a word(concept of), as selectively pulling partial definitions found in reference sources can spin the meaning to bolster one's point of view, here is a broader definition( from two dictionaries, one being Webster -
treason; adhering to or giving aid and comfort to its enemies by one who owes it allegiance, giving aid and comfort to the enemies of one's country
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Martin .
{K:24957} 7/7/2006
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Paul,
I will leave it at this: "Your an Ass" if what you said you did is true, it's cool, but if you did this just to piss off many people and that's not good...
We are going to have a sit down talk son,
Marty
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A.L Carter
{K:567} 7/6/2006
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A thought provoking photo paul. What ever one feels, it brought it up.
Good one!
Al
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Robin W
{K:16308} 7/6/2006
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Powerful story to support the image...a very NICE piece of work Paul...high five, pat on the back, hats off to you!
Take care...Robin
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Phillip Minnis
{K:13131} 7/6/2006
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Oh, Paul, what a fantastic story!
You might have noticed by my comments, I did not judge the image. I simply stated that it might get a reaction! And, it sure did!
Well done - a great way to retire the old gal! LOL It certainly got some of them going - before they new the full story!
Well done, buddy!
Cheers
Phil
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Roger Skinner
{K:81846} 7/6/2006
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yeah burn on big river burn on
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Randy Lorance
{K:24769} 7/6/2006
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> Paul
Way to turn a :( into a :)
Intriguing exercise. An image sure to get animated reactions(without an 'about'). I think if the natural assumption was that the flag was being retired, and then it was explained it was being burnt as a political statement, the results would have been entirely different. That it was posted on Independence Day was sure to fuel to the 'fire'. Now as far as- "Do NOT assume you know the whole story…until you KNOW the story.", Phil,Robin, and Avi are to be commended. But it is also,if your intention was not known, sure to elicit an erroneous conclusion by those who drew one. It makes me wonder how you might react if I were in a play version of "Shindler's List", and in my costume consisting of a Nazi armband on my shirt, passed you on the sidewalk, what your reaction might be?
Now as for my statement- "To anyone within these borders and of a mind, they do not constrain you from seeking greener pasture.", it wasn't my attempt at a poetic version of- "Love it or leave it". I happen to feel that there are many appropiate ways to express your displeasure with the government, president, foreign policy, pro-wrestling or what have you, without burning the American flag. The American flag isn't the propery of Bush or whoever happens to be in power, it is a symbol of the country and stands for all of it's citizens, even Michael Moore.
My feeling, shared by many, is that the burning of the flag represents a desire to see the destruction of the U.S.A., not the desire to improve any faults through Constitutional means.
The statement- "To anyone within these borders...", was directed to those who see none of the good of this country, and to point out that no one is held here against their will(another freedom). It might surprise you to know that I am not in favor of laws against burning the flag. But those who choose this "protest" (particularly U.S. citizens) may and will be judged by the company they keep.
Respectfully
Randy
(it would be interesting to know your reaction to comments...there is generally two sides- those who rejoyced at the misconstrued image, and those who were pained)
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Gayle's Eclectic Photos
{K:91109} 7/6/2006
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Thanks for reply,but i never said your image was "a desecration"..."you know who" will not be too pleased with your about,i strongly suspect ;>
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Rob Graziano
{K:6678} 7/6/2006
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That Was an Awesome About Paul! Wow...Left speechless here.
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Avi
{K:70138} 7/6/2006
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Take it easy, Paul. My intention was not to hurt you. I respect your feelings.
Nice thing you put that 'About'.
Cheers!
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Paul Lara
{K:88111} 7/6/2006
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Rob,
Thank you very much for your comments, and please come read my About so you can know "the REST of the story."
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Paul Lara
{K:88111} 7/6/2006
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Please come see my About, and you won't feel so sad, Eb.
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Paul Lara
{K:88111} 7/6/2006
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"To anyone within these borders and of a mind, they do not constrain you from seeking greener pasture."
I'm sorry, Randy, but "Love it or leave it" has no place in a mature democracy, when that means "support the government or get out". It is my obligation to speak out against abuses of my Constitution.
Please come read my About before you think you have it all figured out.
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Paul Lara
{K:88111} 7/6/2006
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"What's up" is now explained in my About, Avi.
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Paul Lara
{K:88111} 7/6/2006
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...come read the About, Roger. It explains all.
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Paul Lara
{K:88111} 7/6/2006
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Actually, Gayle, this was not a desecration, as so many were rushing to assume, but instead a memorialization of what the flag stands for:
- Freedom to say what we choose
- Understanding our obligation as citizen-voters to stand up to wrong-doing when we find it.
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Paul Lara
{K:88111} 7/6/2006
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Actually, Robin, I was wanting to see what pre-determined attitudes people would bring to this photo...and NOW I have provided the truthful story behind the image. Come read the about. ;)
Paul
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Paul Lara
{K:88111} 7/6/2006
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Before you start making absurd claims of Treason, you should read the comments on this photo, Martin.
Since you may not know how to use Google (you can google it for more info), Treason is defined as "...[a]...citizen's actions to help a foreign government overthrow, make war against, or seriously injure the [parent nation]."
Also...note how quotations marks are properly used above in the English language.
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Paul Lara
{K:88111} 7/6/2006
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Phillip,
Please read my About.
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Gayle's Eclectic Photos
{K:91109} 7/5/2006
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>Martin, you say,"If not this capture is an Act of Treason against the "United States of America"
Not only is that statement inflammatory,but blatantly irrational!...My country,the USA,does not consider this image,the act itself,nor the person posting it to be even remotely "an act of treason"...perhaps you should actually read the Constitution before you make such a libelous statement...you should also look up the definitions of "defamation,libel and slander"...
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Rob Graziano
{K:6678} 7/5/2006
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Hi Mark...I love my Country in spite of the current day challenges. Please articulate to me when our country was a great nation. You've railed against what it is now...tell me what a great nation is...and just out of curiousity...can you name a SINGLE country that is better? Just one where the 14 items that Paul cited on his other shot DON'T exist; Mark...you seem to forget that Man by nature is far from perfect and there is not a single place on this Earth where corruption doesn't exist. Power Corrupts...absolute Power Corrupts absolutely. You say you're an Ex-Pat in the making???? Good luck finding somewhere that Politicians, almost all of them, aren't fallible. That place DOES NOT EXIST.
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Eb Mueller
{K:24960} 7/4/2006
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Well, it is a controversial statement, Paul! Suffice to say, I feel saddened and hate to see it burn!
Eb
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Mark Julian
{K:36866} 7/4/2006
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Brilliant work - just says so much !! The Photo of the month IMO. To me this represents a Country that has abandoned most of it's people (we saw it first hand with New Orleans) except for the ultra wealthy, multi national corporations, the military industrial complex, and others who control things with their massive power and financial influence. A country who can send naive victims off to slaughter or permenant damage in a war totally based on lies. A war started by a group of cowardly, misdirected men that didn't have the courage to fight for their country when it was their turn to do so. Sent to a country that's in the middle of a civil war that we very much helped create at a cost of $10 Billion a month. Yet this country has no money to provide the masses with Universal Health Care like every other civilized industrialized country on the planet. Seniors can't afford their medication while drug companies make off like bandits. Our Public Schools are a joke - cranking out students that know a little more than nothing after 12 years. The average American now has zero representation by their Politicians. The list goes on and on and on....
America was once a great nation - what it's become now, an imperialist, arrogant, basically one party, marching towards a police state land with stolen elections and undeclared wars full of broken rules (Gitmo, prisoners flown illegally to countries that allow torture) and legitimized murder. On a very sad day when one American "liberator of the Iraqi people" has been arrested for the murder of an Iraqi Husband and Wife and their 5 year old daughter. Then this proud Soldier went into the next room and brutally raped their teenage daughter before filling her young head full of bullets and burning her body (this is the 5th case under investigation, like all wars, there's hundreds if not thousands that have gone unreported - no one will ever know). Support our troops? I don't think so....... America, I used to love you so where did you go? I'm afraid you might be lost for ever.....Happy Birthday anyway, I don't see too many more down the road the way things are going - an expat in the making, Mark
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Randy Lorance
{K:24769} 7/4/2006
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Please excuse my hurried mistake -
230th year
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Randy Lorance
{K:24769} 7/4/2006
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Your image, coming from the country of which those colors represent, makes a most eloquent statement as to the fabric of the nation, celebrated on this 280th day of it's founding.
To everyone I wish a most happy Independence Day. To anyone within these borders and of a mind, they do not constrain you from seeking greener pasture.
"We hold these truths to be self-evident; that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creater with certain unalienable Rights; that amoung these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness" - Thomas Jefferson
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Dina Marie
{K:-1410} 7/4/2006
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http://www.usefilm.com/Image.asp?ID=1139697
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Avi
{K:70138} 7/4/2006
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What's up, Paul ?
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Roger Skinner
{K:81846} 7/4/2006
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yeah burn on big river burn on
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Gayle's Eclectic Photos
{K:91109} 7/4/2006
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Hi,Paul...as you know,that amendment to ban desecration of the flag did not pass the Senate!
If we amend the Constitution to restrict one freedom of speech, what's to stop it from being amended in the future to prohibit other kinds of speech? The precedent will have been set... The Constitution isn't about what individuals can and can't do, it's about what government can and can't do... It's a contract, of sorts, with the people, and the government has broken this contract (or stretched the terms rather thin, at the very least) enough over the years... We don't need to give them a license for further encroachments...
Your image is quite thought provoking tho' the flames are quite "hot" technically...hehehe...maybe an intentional high contrast...
Long live true freedom of speech...dissent doesn't mean unpatriotic...this country was formed by dissent......peace,gayle
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Robin W
{K:16308} 7/4/2006
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Stirring the bucket Paul...but which bucket is the question...
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Martin .
{K:24957} 7/4/2006
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Paul,
I'm sure this is just Photo Shop my friend... And you just forgot to leave an about comment on this 1...
A true “Southern Gentleman” would never display an “American Flag” on fire with no explanation, indeed…
If not this capture is an Act of Treason against the "United States of America"
Enjoy your 4th of July off, regarding the lives it cost for the "Freedom" you experience today and, as a friend please explain this blatant disregard for the "Great Country" we both live in today?
Martin
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Gustavo Scheverin
{K:164501} 7/4/2006
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Imagen de impacto y dramatismo.
Felicitaciones!
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Phillip Minnis
{K:13131} 7/4/2006
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Oh, wow, Paul, this might get a reaction!
Cheers
Phil
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